Teaching and Learning Stories from the Field, a podcast from the Teaching & Learning Centre at Seneca College Episode 6: Accessible Podcasting Transcript Kevin Pitts [00:00:00] (Music)
Hello, and welcome to "Teaching and Learning Stories From the Field," a podcast from the Teaching & Learning Centre at Seneca College. In episode six, Gina Catenazzo, Devin Andrade, and Alan Elliot share their story about an exciting new course development project they have been involved in, which is all about creating accessible podcasts. Gina is an instructional designer at Seneca College, where she collaborates with a multidisciplinary team to create beautiful, engaging, accessible digital content and online courses. Gina is passionate about providing inclusive, creative, and accessible solutions in online learning by applying Universal Design and accessibility principles. Devin is a digital content producer. She has developed and created videos, websites, social media, content, and podcasts. She has worked on the creative side, producing podcasts and on the marketing side, helping shows, grow their audiences. With a love for all things podcasting, she is passionate about helping the industry progress and accessibility is a big part of that. Alan has worked as an audio engineer for over 25 years and currently teaches audio production at Seneca college. His experience includes live sound, mixing, studio recording, and the production of music, television shows and live radio concerts. He has mixed over 2000 shows, including many international recording artists. Alan is currently completing graduate studies in sound design with a focus on accessibility solutions for audio production, for people with hearing impairment and hearing loss. Here is their story.

Kevin Pitts [00:01:54]
So great to have you here. Gina, Devin and Alan. Welcome.

Various Speakers:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Kevin Pitts [00:02:00]
Well, what I find interesting is today we're talking about accessible podcasting by way of an accessible podcast. Um, but before we begin, I know you've all been involved in a content development project about creating accessible podcasts. I'm really curious. Could you tell us a little bit about it. Gina.

Gina Catenazzo [00:02:20]
Yeah. So Seneca College got some funding from the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund to create micro credentials in accessible podcasting. So, we landed on creating two different micro credentials, um, one in pre-production and one in production, which Devin and Alan are the subject matter experts in those courses. And so what we've done is we assembled a team of people which includes the subject matter experts and instructional designer, which is myself uh, a web developer, some faculty, some accessibility consultants, as well as partnering with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind (C N I B) and the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association (C H H A). So yeah, so all of us essentially are collaborating on creating these two courses.

Kevin Pitts [00:03:26]
That sounds fabulous. And we'll hear a little bit more about that a bit later on. So let's step back a little bit and just get down to what we mean by accessibility and what, what does accessibility encompass?

Gina Catenazzo [00:03:40]
Yeah. So I really like the National Center on Accessible Educational Materials by CAST has a fantastic definition. I think of what is accessibility and essentially their definition is a person with a disability can acquire the same information, engage in the same interactions, enjoy the same services in an equally effective, equally integrated manner with substantially equivalent ease of use as a person, without a disability. So essentially what that means is equal access for everyone and an inclusive experience for everyone, regardless of ability.

Kevin Pitts [00:03:34]
I love that. I think that's a fantastic definition. So, so why do we need accessible podcasts? Or why, why are we doing this? Devin?

Devin Andrade [00:04:44]
I mean, I think it goes right back to what Gina said about providing an inclusive experience that doesn�t exist as often with podcasts. Primarily like people would classify a podcast as something you consume through an audio file, but as podcasting grows and as we see the content develop and be consumed different ways, they can be more accessible than they have been previously. And by not having accessible podcasts, you're leaving out people who might really enjoy your show and your content. You're just cutting off this potential audience that could be really great. And by not including them in the production process, you're leaving out stories that could also be told. So by looking at accessible podcasts, we're bringing more people into the space and allowing more people to enjoy this type of content.

Kevin Pitts [00:05:38]
Great. Yeah. So, so then what do we need to do to make podcasts accessible? Gina?

Gina Catenazzo [00:05:46]
Yeah, so I think the most intuitive or the one that I think most people might consider is providing a transcript. So a written format of the audio. Podcast. Um, so individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing, um, are able to still consume the content of that podcast. Some other, perhaps less obvious things would be, for example, is the website where you host your podcast. Is that accessible? Um, is the link to your podcast prominent on the page or the link to the transcript? Are those things prominent? Um, is the media player you're using accessible? And what I mean by having a website, accessible media player accessible, um, one of the considerations there would be, can you navigate those things, using a keyboard? Um, so for people who are blind, who don't use a mouse, are they able to navigate the environment, using a keyboard? Another consideration, some podcasters will actually create video to accompany their podcasts. So does that video have captioning? We we consider additional formats or alternative formats to just the audio file. And then it's also ensuring that those additional formats are accessible.

Kevin Pitts [00:07:12]
Wow. There's so much to think about with making your podcast accessible, things I had never thought of. Um, so what are, what are podcasters doing now? What's the current state of the industry? Devin?

Devin Andrade [00:07:25]
I do think that we're starting to see a shift in the industry, like we're in the early stages of a shift towards prioritizing and including accessibility in podcasts more often. Um, right now it's, it can be difficult to find transcripts it's even more difficult to find properly accessible websites like Gina mentioned, and media players as well. Because there is this shift happening more and more podcasters are talking about it and more and more platforms are seeing the need to integrate it into their software. So there's a lot of podcasts that don't offer transcripts or they don't offer them freely. So we're seeing a shift so that more podcasters will offer those transcripts. And then there's also a rise just across the industry beyond accessibility. People are just talking about video content a lot because YouTube is becoming a really frequent place that people consume podcasts. Video podcasts are being discussed a lot more. And so hopefully as video becomes more popular, people make those videos accessible as well. So adding captions onto their videos. I think one of the biggest examples we've seen since we started developing the micro credential to now is one of the biggest shows Radiolab. I feel like they've made a big jump recently in the accessible things they offer. So not only do they have their transcripts, they also have a video version and they also offer a braille version of their episodes. So they are kind of becoming what I would say is close to a gold standard in the industry. But again, they're one of the biggest shows. So they have the resources to make that possible. As a smaller show, it can be difficult. You might need software to help make your transcripts and things like that. There are options, but it is something that podcasters have to do independently of themselves. There isn't that much support from the platforms. So we're starting to see that shift where Spotify and Amazon music are trying to integrate transcripts into their apps so that you're not leaving the app to see the transcripts or consume the transcripts. But they're also doing them in varying styles. So can you edit that transcript? On one platform you can on the other, you can't, and right now it's still very new. They're only doing it on their own shows, but at least we're starting to see that emphasis from the platforms as well as the podcasters. And I think getting both of them to put the emphasis on it is a huge part of it. And then the third player is also advertisers wanting transcripts because they wanna know. For this podcast that I am advertising on. What are they talking about? Does my brand fit in here safely? And some advertisers are already doing that on their own they're transcribing episodes so that they can check for brand safety. So there's a few players in the game right now that are hopefully pushing the industry towards accessibility becoming more common and just like the standard practice, cuz right now I don't feel that it is, but it is being talked about more and more.

Kevin Pitts [00:010:41]
So are there standards now in the industry or are they evolving?

Devin Andrade [00:10:44]
I would say they're evolving. I think right now at the bare minimum, have a transcript and have it easy to access. I think that's like the standard right now, but. I don't think it's being implemented in a standard way. One show might have it in their show notes in certain apps and another show might not have it linked in their show notes. So it's not just providing the transcripts, but it's how easy is it to find that transcript? Where is it linked? Where is it provided? So there's not really a standard, there's a standard piece of content to support, which is the transcript, but there isn't a standard way of providing it.

Kevin Pitts [00:11:25]
Okay. Interesting. Let's, let's shift gears a little bit. And I'm really curious about each of your stories, how you got to be in the position that you are now in with the topic of accessible podcasting. What's your story? Gina. How did you get involved in all this?

Gina Catenazzo [00:11:46]
Yeah, so about eight years ago, let's start there. Um, I started working in the post-secondary educational sector, um, as a graphic designer, probably closer to 10 years, actually 10 years ago. And I got introduced to this whole world of designing for education when, before I was designing more for media and that's when my interest first started in accessibility. Um, I started taking some training in universal design for learning and then lots of training in accessibility after that over the years. And I just naturally started applying that to the, to my course developments, um, and, and became a real advocate for that at, at the former institution that I was working at. Um, I joined Seneca not that long ago, about nine months ago. And I was assigned to this project because of my accessibility knowledge and my interest in this, in this area.

Kevin Pitts [00:12:55]
That's great. That's awesome. And I really like that notion of advocacy for accessibility. I think that's so needed. Yeah. And Devin, how did you get involved with the project?

Devin Andrade [00:13:08]
Uh, well, I have been listening to podcasts and producing podcasts for a few years now. And so it's a medium that I am really invested in. It's an industry that I'm really invested in. And I just felt like there was this gap in education and there's a gap not only in educating on podcasting, but also accessible podcasting. You know, the industry is talking about it more, but there also isn't a lot of education around, well, what does that mean? And how do you incorporate that into your podcast and your production? So for me, I, I wanted to create the course I wish existed. And so that's what we've been able to do here. So I bring in the podcast industry and production knowledge. And then I've learned a lot more about accessibility than I knew before from Gina and the entire team. So it's really, it's shown me how big the gap is in accessibility and podcasting. I knew it was there, but I did not realize how much work there is to be done. So hopefully with this, we can work to improve.

Kevin Pitts [00:14:12]
Yeah. Yeah. That notion of awareness. Uh and as you learn doing each of us may have our specialty area, but there's so much more involved in that team approach really helps in the long run. Um, Alan welcome. And how about your story? How did you get involved with, with this project?

Alan Elliot [00:14:32]
Oh, thanks for asking that. Okay. Yeah. So in, in terms of this project, um, you know, Kurt first approached me about it, um, asking initially it was about, um, if people that had hearing difficulties would be able to work with audio. And of course that immediately is, is interesting and intriguing because you realize that there's very little, um, technology and tools available. Um, and it can be quite a challenge for someone, um, with hard, hard of hearing or hearing difficulties to do that. So I, I really started investigating ways in which that could be, um, achieved and, you know, as I sort, I started to delve into it. Um, realize that there's a lot of ways in which you can represent the, the sound that happens in an environment using things like sound level meters, and, um, using just really good techniques for establishing how to use a microphone properly, how to set it up, how to set up your environment. So that there's noises that exist in the environment. You talked about a fan earlier, you know, things like that, that someone with, with hearing difficulties might not be able to hear. Um, so just visually identifying potential sources of noise, creating a more neutral recording environment and then getting into, um, we've used this software. We we're using a software called Descript. And what's really great about that is that it can transcribe the audio into text and then you can edit the text, like a word document. Um, so that makes it really easy for someone to edit audio as, as easily as you could edit, um, a document in Microsoft Word or similar kind of software. And one of the things involved in the workflow is, other than, you know, establishing methods to control the environment and do the best you can to make sure that your recordings are good. When you incorporate video as well into the whole mix, then you can use that software to not only transcribe what is being said in the audio, but you have a visual reference so that someone who has hearing difficulties can actually look at the video and see what is being said through perhaps lipreading. Um, and they can verify that the text transcription is correct. Cause even the best softwares make mistakes. And so if you're wanting to transcribe audio and have it as an editable document, then it's a little bit harder to do that. If, um, the software is up to scratch and you have no visual reference. And of course having that visual aspect to it when you're actually recording video and audio together, that can then be used later, um, for, you know, other podcast delivery. So you can actually deliver your podcast, not only as an audio file, but as a video file. And because we have the accurate transcription, you can then embed closed captions onto the product as well. So then you have this method of podcast where normally delivered as audio files. Now you can deliver them as video files with close captions and so that it levels a playing field and allows everybody to, um, access the content. So not only are they able to, everyone's able to create the content using the tools and technology that we'll be presenting in this course, but they'll actually be able to produce content that is consumable by a wide range of people. Um, hopefully allowing everybody to enjoy the contact that you make as well.

Kevin Pitts [00:18:03]
We'll be right back after this.

Kevin Pitts [00:18:06] (Music)
Are you looking for online resources to help you with your teaching? Whether in class, online, or a mixture of both. If you are, check out the teaching tips and course resources section of Seneca's Teaching and Learning Centre site. There you'll find tips and resources on engaging students, active learning, overcoming teaching challenges, and much, much more. Need more info? Send us an email via teaching@senecacollege.ca. And now back to our story.

Kevin Pitts [00:18:46]
Maybe Alan, you could tell us a little bit more about the about that project in terms of you know, how will the project help? How was it, how it was developed? And what were some of the considerations that went into the design of the project?

Alan Elliot [00:19:00]
Yeah, absolutely. So We had a lot of talks in the beginning about how to put this together. Um, and we settled on having a production course, as well as a pre-production course. So the, the pre-production course will run first of all, when that one starts in a couple of weeks in June. And, um, that way Devin's the subject subject matter expert for that course. And she's created all this wonderful content for it. Um, and we've been meeting regularly with Gina and Laura Page to basically go over the content and discuss, you know, what changes need to be made and any suggestions and any tips all with that kind of focus on accessibility along the way. And that to me has been one of the most interesting parts is because you're thinking about it from every aspect, you know, not only, um, accessibility in being able to access the content, but in accessibility in being able to create the content, um, and just seeing the, the work that's being done on the, the website, for example, um, really great, um, design really easily navigable and, um, overall we've created this, well we would hope to create this amazing experience. Students can come in, learn about how the, the pre-production of podcast exists and get into potentially the production side as well. Um, so they'll not only be able to understand, you know, how podcasts are put together, but then they'll also be able to create their own. And they'll also be able to create accessible content that, um, like I said before that other users will be able to enjoy and all users will be able to.

Kevin Pitts [00:20:42]
Great. So Gina, what did you do to make the courses accessible?

Gina Catenazzo [00:20:46]
Yeah, so, so there were, we considered a lot of things. What I forgot to mention in the �how did I get started in all of this?� is over my 10 years, you know, that initial interest and accessibility that started 10 years ago. Along the way, I've also become an instructional designer. Not just looking at course development from a visual perspective, but also a pedagogical perspective, engagement, perspectives, all these things we look, we consider when we're developing courses. And then, so my particular interest is also looking at accessibility and Universal Design for Learning when designing online courses. So, ah, what we've done is we, um, have a web developer on the team and her name is Kathy Kim and Kathy and myself work very closely, um, in creating the course content and, and we are creating it and she's doing the coding. So I say we, but she's actually doing it as an accessible website. Uh, so the website is fully navigable by keyboard. We ensured there was alternative text on everything, lots of descriptions. Um, and so all of the sort of accessibility guidelines, um, under the AODA the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, which is informed by the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG), all of that has been implemented into the design of the content website. In addition to that though, ah, often we will have to also consider universal design, um, in delivery of content. Um, so for example, in, in Alan's course, in the production course specifically, we, we had some unique instances where we had to think about and talk about how to deliver certain, ah, activities. So an activity, for example that may traditionally be a listening exercise. For, for example, we have the learner listen to a piece of audio and identify what could be the, the issues. What are the issues in that audio? We had to sit and think about how can we create this activity so it's accessible for all people? And so what we did with that activity is we provided the audio file. We provided a picture of the environment, and then we also provided, um, the spectrogram output which is sort of the wave form � Alan, I hope I'm saying it right -- which is the wave form of the audio. So, so it allows the learner to approach answering that questions from multiple ways. We considered universal design in every aspect of our delivery.

Kevin Pitts [00:23:58]
I'm, I was just struck by that notion of multiplicity. So, um, a lot of these integrated concepts, like Universal Design for Learning and the accessibility guidelines, et cetera, they're very much integrated and looking at multiple ways so that all learners can benefit from an experience that, that you're putting together.

Gina Catenazzo [00:24:16]
Yeah. It's about that equal experience that we talked about at the beginning, in the definition of accessibility, the equal engagement, the equal experience for all, all people with all abilities.

Kevin Pitts [00:24:30]
Yeah. That, that wonderful definition that you shared earlier on. That's great. So where are we going in, in the, maybe the near future, maybe the far future, where is this all leading us to? Alan?

Alan Elliot [00:24:43]
Yeah. So I think, yeah, from, if I can talk to the, the production side that I'm involved in, um, just building on what Gina was saying earlier, um, we really did have to consider how different users with different accessibility requirements would be able to participate in all these different exercises. So making it, um, you know, as equal as possible that everyone has a good chance to do the same thing, um, you know, and get a good experience. And so, It we've kind of used, um, methods like the, what we call a spectrograms that allows someone, perhaps with hearing loss to see the, the frequencies that exist in an audio file and how they, how they sort of change over time. And, but developing that a little bit further, um, there's certain things that I'd like to see in the production side as well. For example, one thing that someone who has difficulty with hearing can potentially do is feel audio as well as, you know, a person that might be able to hear the audio. So using, you know transducers that vibrate in sympathy with the audio that's happening, getting played back in a, an audio editing software, then someone that has a hearing loss or hearing will be able to feel the rhythm of that audio and get a greater sense of what is being said in the audio. So they can, they can sort of see the transcriptions happening in real time. They can feel the content, feel the rhythm of it. And then, the other challenge I think is, eh, one thing with transcription is it doesn't get the emotional intent that comes across from someone delivering a podcast. So the words are there, but how they're said, isn�t um, something that is all, all very clear, unless you have a, a visual component to go along with it, like a video. But having the ability to incorporate emotional intent into the content so that someone who's experiencing the content rather than listening to it, they're experiencing it in alternative ways can still get a sense of what's happening and still get that same emotional feel and that emotional depth that they're that they, they should be entitled to, to experience.

Kevin Pitts [00:27:00]
Wow, that that is so interesting. And that notion of bringing in, um, the emotions, the, the haptic side of things that so that they can, they can feel the recording. I find that really fascinating. Um, and I think we mentioned earlier on you did, in terms of the evolution of this, that it's, it's, it's a process and we're not there yet, and there's lots of work still to do, but what you've done together as a team is, is done that, that part to get us moving forward, which I think is fabulous. Any final thoughts to share? Is there something that perhaps we haven't touched on that you'd like our listeners to know about?

Gina Catenazzo [00:27:38]
Yeah. I'd like to say something in terms of where we're going in the future. My hope, you know, my ideal scenario in this arena of accessibility and not just podcasting, but all accessibility. You know what I often say in the training that I do, I do a lot of training in accessible, creating accessible content. What I often say is, you know when you know you can't unknow, when you learn you can't unlearn. And my hope is someday that it's just a given, this is what you do. It's just a given that you create your content excessively and inclusively and, and, and, you know, we don't need to convince people to do that. That's my hope someday.

Kevin Pitts [00:28:29]
That's I love that. I think that's wonderful. Devi or Alan, any final thoughts?

Alan Elliot [00:28:36]
Uh, just a, a thought really. Um, it doesn't have to be necessarily a final thought, but it's something that occurs to me is that when we did start this project, um, it was really surprising to me how the, the lack of accessibility, um, in, in the podcast world, things that you know are relatively easy to achieve weren't being done. Um, I know, I know there's obviously a lot of time that perhaps needs to be invested in creating transcriptions and getting them verified and things like that. But, you know, the tools and technology are there. And I think we're kind of doing something here that is pretty unique, um, in many ways, you know, that's, it's, it's very necessary and I'm really happy to be involved in this project. It's been really great to be part of a team of really talented people. And I think we're all learning a lot as we go from each other, I hope. And, um, just like to say, it's been a really great experience overall.

Devin Andrade [00:29:33]
Yeah, I would add right onto that, that like what Gina said once, you know, you can't unknow. And I think that's a lot of what this course can bring to the industry in general. One of our industry partners is Pacific Content. They produce podcasts here in Canada. And they've mentioned, like they incorporate things like transcripts into the shows they produce. But beyond that, they don't know the depth of accessibility that they could be considering for their shows and for the work they do. So in their, the way they see it � people who go through this course are really valuable to their teams because they can provide that added level of knowledge and the depth of knowledge to make accessibility that much stronger in podcasting.

Kevin Pitts [00:30:21]
Well, thanks so much. Uh, Gina Allen, Devin for sharing your ideas and thoughts with us today. I mean, I've learned a lot. I've learned that it takes a multitude of perspectives to do the project, to do accessible podcasting. And that fits in with that notion of the multiple ways of expression and representation that universal design, all those principles that hopefully will become more integrated into our educational system as we move forward. So thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your ideas and thoughts. And I look forward, really look forward to seeing the courses as they launch in the next month or so. Thanks again.

All [00:31:00]
Thanks. Thank you. Thank you.

Kevin Pitts [00:31:07] (Music)
Thanks to Gina, Devin, and Alan for sharing their story with us today. For more information about accessible podcasting, including links to additional resources and the accessible podcasting courses and micro credentials mentioned, please visit our website at "bit.ly/podcasttlc". That's b I t dot l y slash p o d c a s t tlc. Thanks for joining us and see you next time on "Teaching and Learning Stories from the Field," from the Seneca Teaching & Learning Centre.